#lostbelt criticism

[typemoonconfessions]

[fgocriticisms]

[thessaliah]

I knew U Olga would ruin the story since her ugly clown face appeared in Olympus.

Huge anti U Olga-rant below. 

I don't know what possessed Nasu to think U Olga was a good idea. It's just. Okay, I guess is the BB version of Olga. All CCC villains were kinda gag characters that were cringe as hell, in design and mannerisms (BB, the Egos, Kiara, Eliza), but like... the setting of CCC was more or less unserious from the beginning with the Student Council crap, the bb channels, etc. There were threats, but like the atmosphere of the writing was more outrageous than a mute tragedy. Cosmos in the Lostbelt was, meanwhile, a bittersweet story where Guda's and Mash's fighting for survival leads to horrible choices of erasing entire worlds and people which weighs into their consciousness. Even with some levity moments, there's a tragic hint all around which weighs them down. Suddenly Nasu dropped this clown upon us in what was supposed to be a tense moment and climax.

It's like he inserted BB into Heaven's Feel. I love BB, but I think if I read HF with BB, I would hate her guts because she'll be literally a bloody sore thumb that destroys the quiet tragedy setting with her nonsense. It's disruptive and not in a good way.

After how this character singlehandedly destroyed Fate/Grand Order part 2 main story for me, I have no face to think Nasu is a good writer. LB6 is a fluke at this point, and he was carried by other writers in part 2. Like the opposite of part 1. I have zero interest to see how things are solved now besides the Bluebook sorted-out plot. I'll skip the story after that's done not to inflict myself on bad writing and roll for Servants I like. It was barely tolerable to go through LB7.

It’s kind of insane how he had this gorgeous setting, a proper tragic character as Olga dying to be explored to bring forth actual complicated feelings from Mash and Guda from the idea she’s their enemy and what they can do about it (instead of turning them into her unambiguous brainless drones), and he phoned it in so badly. Like sweetie, Olga, I’m sorry. You’re safe in Sanda’s hands at least.

[linkspooky]

Ciel-Noel post

Revenge is bad, actually. Simple revenge in stories is boring and uninteresting and Kill Bill is a bad movie.

I dislike the idea of punitive justice in stories to begin with, at least in stories that don't look critically at it. However, I also think people often get punitive justice (a branch of moral philosophy) with the idea of narrative punishment (actions have consequences in stories). I'm not against narrative punishment at all, well-written stories should have direct consequences for all the important characters actions. If a character is a noble gas and no one reacts to their actions, then they are stagnant and unchanging. A character who is constantly reacting to other people, and provoking reactions in return, is a dynamic character.

Now that I've thoroughly buried the lead six feet under, let's get to the main event. Ciel and Noel is a tightly written tragedy in the horror genre. If you've ever watched a slasher movie before, horror operates on like, an extreme kind of narrative punishment. People always joke that if you have sex, or do drugs, or drink alcohol in a horror movie the slasher will kill you and yeah, that's basically it. Horror movies are relenting and unforgiving, you basically take one step out of line and get stabbed in the back for it. So, it's not at all surprising that in the same story where Ciel experiences a change of heart and goes from seeing Shiki not as a victim but another vampire to kill, to being willing to sacrifice everything to save him, Noel does not get saved. Doesn't that make Ciel a huge hypocrite going the extra mile to save her boyfriend, but putting a bullet in the head of the partner she's known for years to put her out of her misery? Why, yes. Yes it is. That's also the point.

Ciel (and Noel's) route in the Tsukihime remake are about two girls who are the victims of the same tragedy. One gets saved, one does not. One finds a person who will do anything to reach and redeem their humanity, the other does not. They both get worse and worse, but one is given a helping hand at their lowest point, and the other gets a bullet between the eyes. This is unfair, and cruel, and again the point. Nasu in the remake turned one of the routes with the happier ending into a bitter tragedy no matter which of the two endings you pick and it's great.

Nasu is a writer who understands the tools of storytelling and with Ciel and Noel, wrote a tightly constructed tragedy where both characters face a narrative punishment. Once again, narrative punishment means for every action the character takes in the story, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Characters don't get away scott free with anything. They reap what they sew. This gives the characters actions meaning, and feels like they are building towards an arc because there is an underlying point that the author is trying to make to us, by framing these characters actions in a certain light.

Nasu employs narrative punishment, sometimes even incredibly harsh narrative punishment (read every wrong choice in FSN where Shirou gets horribly maimed or just Shirou's life in general). However, Nasu does not believe in punitive justice. I mean, I made a joke about Oberon up above but like, Nasu literally wrote an entire FGO Lostbelt chapter showing how chaotic evil the fairies were, and then he still underlined it's wrong to punish people without a chance for redemption or atonement by making Oberon the final boss. Even Castoria who is an ultimate victim of the fairies who was locked in a barn and treated like an animal, and didn't even want to save them was still like "This is wrong, we should have given them some chance to redeem themselves."

That belief that punishment without the chance of redemption is wrong, is written into the core of Ciel and Noel's tragedy.

So anyway, let's get to the part where I start recapping the story with analysis so you guys have some frame of reference for what I'm talking about. Noel is a previous victim of Roa, a vampire that continually reincarnates by hijacking bodies. A victim of ROA slowly becomes possessed until the two personalities effectively merge, at which point Roa goes on a killing spree. This happened to Ciel in her french village, Ciel noticed intrusive thoughts of a voice in her head telling her to kill her family, kill her family, kill her family, and did her best to ignore and suppress them until she couldn't. She then tore out her parent's throats, and then went on a rampage only to be killed by arcueid a short while after. Not before killing basically everyone in the town except for Noel.

Ciel and Noel are the lone survivors of ROA's massacre, and both victims of ROA himself. Ciel and Noel are also the same person, so like, write that down. Are you taking notes? This is gonna be a long post you better be writing down bullet points. Big bullet point number one, Ciel and Noel are the same person this is going to be on the test later.

Is the massacre, and all the deaths that occurred Ciel's fault?

No, you'd think logically being possessed by someone else and only having your agency taking away from you would clear you from responsibility.

However, Ciel was taken in by the catholic church afterwards and they weren't having any of that forgiveness shit. Ciel after miraculously recovering from her death at Arcueid, no longer under Roa's possession, is killed repeatedly by the church, only to find she's immortal now. No matter how many times they try to torture her, or execute her to give her justice for the victims of the massacre it doesn't work. So, instead they eventually just recruit her to be a vampire hunter. Bla bla bla, metaphor for how punitive justice doesn't actually accomplish anything, bla bla bla, metaphor for how Ciel's way of redeeming herself by hunting down and punishing other vampires (which is also just revenge) doesn't work because there's no end to it, there's no forgiveness or absolution, it's just eternal suffering. Would a loving god who created the world and preaches about forgiveness really make a hell where all the really bad people get sent to, and never get any chance of redemption?

“A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!” ― Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger

So, already we're touching on both justice, and also the hypocrisies of certain western religions, by Nasu demonstrating that justice without forgiveness accomplishes nothing. Ciel trying to redeem herself in the eyes of the church is truly the sisyphus pushing the boulder up the hill of redemption arcs, because there's no forgiveness, only hard labor for her sins. Ciel will just keep killing vampires to atone until she dies, but she can't die, so that boulder will keep rolling up that hill.

This is the underlying point of Ciel's entire arc, Ciel does not save anybody. She kills vampires. By killing vampires she hypothetically stops them from killing future victims, but that's not saving them. One of the most poignant things I've ever read from Nasu was from UBW where Shirou says more or less if there's a bank robber holding up a bank, and a cop comes in and shoots the robber through the chest, that might save all the hostages but the bank robber didn't get saved. You might say, well obviously, you can't save everyone. It makes sense that you'd save the innocent victims first. At which point I would say yes, I know, I have in fact consulted the ancient texts, UBW is my most replayed route.

However, Ciel and Noel's conflict gets that same point across because there are no innocent victims between the two of them. Ciel and Noel are both victimized, robbed of their agency, and go on to do terrible things, but one of them is saved and one is not. Noel isn't the bank robber in that metaphor, she's the hostage who was cooperating with the bank robber because the robber had a gun to her head, who the swat team decided to snipe through the window.

Noel is introduced as an entirely new character in the remake, she is the only other survivor of the massacre. While Ciel has memories of herself committing the crimes and feels guilt for that, Noel watched everyone die and was tortured for days on end by Roa in Ciel's body for their amusement (someone who was so insignificant to them, that Noel refers to herself as just one chip in a bag of chips Roa was snacking on. That's right, Noel is a cheeto in the grand scheme of things). There is one quote I love from John Dies at the End where John talks about how they're not chess pieces, they're not pieces on the board, they're so insigificant that they're just a cheeto sitting on the outside of the board. That's Noel, she's a cheeto.

The thing is Noel seems to be somewhat narratively aware of the fact that in the grand scheme of things she is a cheeto. Noel and Ciel are both victims of the massacre turned vampires, Ciel is a vampire killing machine and Noel sucks at it. Ciel despite being some rando apparently is born with enough magic circuits to make ancient magus families jealous, and on top of that is the only one who ever survived Roa's possession (and got immortality to boot). In every generation there is a chosen one, she alone will stand against the vampires and the demons and the forces of darkness. She is the slayer. So you've got Ciel the Vampire Slayer, and Noel who's just a cheeto. The cosmically ordained protagonist of reality, and just some guy. Noel has to basically beg and scrape to get by, no matter how hard she works she doesn't get stronger, she doesn't get any cool super powers from the night roa burned down her home town she just gets trauma. She also doesn't get a special boyfriend who will do anything to try to give her a normal life. This is illustrated in true tragic irony, by showing that Noel had a crush on a japanese foreign exchange student who's clearly meant to foil Shiki and he was basically the support she leaned on for the entirety of the tragedy, he dragged her away from danger multiple times, only to find out the reason he saved her was to use her as zombie bait so he could make his escape.

Here's where Noel starts to shine because in a typical narrative, Noel would be the more sympathetic character. People like rooting for the underdog. However, Nasu dares to be different by making Noel extremely difficult to empathize with. For one she's extremely predatory in the way she makes constant uncomfortable advances on Shiki the main character. She's also predatory in the sense she enjoys preying on things weaker than her. She says it line for line, weak people have to pick on those weaker than them. Noel goes after small fry vampires for revenge, and to vent her frustrations, however, she doesn't just kill them she rips them to pieces and tortures them in the most inhumane way possible until they're begging for death.

Why would anyone sympathize with the weak, predatory, pathetic noel who only ever makes excuses and blames others to run away from responsibility, over the stoic, strong ciel who is willing to hunt vampires forever to take responsibility for her actions.

Well here's the thing, *gestures for you to come closer, and then whispers in your ear* all the shit that Noel pulls, Ciel does that too. Ciel and Noel are either the same age, or around the same age, so if Noel is a predator for hitting on Shiki than so is Ciel. It's almost like something happened to them in their youths that stopped all their mental development rendering them both like mentally 16. Noel mercilessly slaughters vampires for revenge, and so does Ciel. She just does it offscreen. We don't know if she tortures them or anything, but remember when Ciel hunts Shiki, how she knows that Shiki is a helpless victim in all this and still goes out of her way to twist the knife, hurt him both physically and emotionally in every way possible before making the final blow.

The reason she acted that way during her and Shiki's confrontation isn't because she was stoically forcing herself to kill Shiki because that was the right thing to do, no she was projecting herself and her survivor's guilt for not killing herself before Roa went on his massacre all over Shiki. She was getting her revenge on a helpless victim because projecting on Shiki was a way for her to punish herself. Noel hates herself for being weak, Ciel hates herself for not being strong enough to slit her throat before everything happened (ergo being weak). They both deal with this self hatred by projecting that onto vampires, even vampires who were turned against their will (especially those ones tbh) and slaughtering them. They were both taken in by the church and taught to do that, so the church could get two child soldiers to send to die fighting vampreis. Ciel is Noel, and Noel is Ciel.

Not only does Noel project her past self and her weaknesses onto vampires, she projects herself onto Ciel. In that Noel really wants to be Ciel. Which is understandable, would you rather be, a girl who's only super power is... having an axe, or a girl with like seventeen million cool weapons, has more mana circuits than most mages, and is fucking immortal.

That's just the surface though, Noel is on like fifteen levels of projection with Ciel. Noel's identity is incredibly tied up in her complicated feelings towards Ciel, both because Ciel is the face of the person who committed every atrocity to Noel, but also because they are the two lone survivors of the same tragedy. Noel and Ciel both try to make themselves into tools for killing vampires to cope with their survivor's guilt, and their inability to conceive of themselves having a normal life after what they have been through. They also were both denied any chance at healing, because the church swept in and fashioned them into hunting dogs to sick on the vampires, and fight those vampires until they die. They are also both convinced that the church is right for doing this, and that deep down they either cannot have (Noel) or do not deserve (Ciel) normal lives while they both secretly pine for it anyway. Both of them are denied the chance for recovery, (because revenge does not heal), and Noel takes that one step further by deliberately driving a wedge into Ciel's recovery.

To quote you Comun, even though you're the one that sent this ask:

And Noel is a character inserted in Tsukihime to thwart Ciel's steady recovery. A constant reminder of what she lost and how the blood is in her hands. To cope with the sins Roa used her body for, Ciel chose to be the Holy Church's most professional extermination machine. Noel is the only survivor of her village because Elesia also died that night, being replaced with Ciel, who is fueled not by emotions but by a vampire kill count. And while Noel is a petty bitch at heart, she genuinely believes Ciel's post-trauma life choice and respects her capability to pull it off. There's no sabotage to their partnership not because Noel is afraid to defy someone a million times stronger than her, but because Noel wholeheartedly agrees with Ciel's choice to never recover and to pay blood for blood for the rest of her potentially eternal life. As long as Ciel stays Ciel, Noel's vengefulness is directed solely at Roa. But then Shiki enters Ciel's life bringing with him semblances of normal happiness. The murder machine began to regain emotions. And to Noel, that's a problem.

So part of this is you know, buying church propaganda. Ciel and Noel are both victims of the same church that does not heal or save people, and only doles out punishments on the guilty.

Part of this is an interesting twist that adds complexity to Noel's character, because like she could blame Ciel for the massacre like the church does, and like Ciel does herself, but as you point out Noel clearly wrestles with that. Noel feels a mix of envy for a twisted respect, one could even say love for Ciel's strength. Noel shows a much more nuanced reaction to Roa wearing Ciel's face and killing her entire family and torturing her for days on end, when she could take the church's approach, or even Ciel's approach towards Shiki. Noel even talks about at length how her and Ciel used to bond together by talking at night about how they were going to get revenge for everyone who died that day. Noel can't just see Ciel as the villain who took everything away from her, because they are the only two survivors of the massacre.

As you said there's no sabotage to their partnership, because despite Noel being the most petty bitch ever she never does anything to hurt or betray Ciel. The reason their partnership falls apart is entirely Ciel's fault. Sure, Noel was dancing on the edge of a cliff and not the most stable person to begin with, but it's Ciel's actions that push her off that cliff.

Not only does Noel drive thwart Ciel's recovery, she also makes Ciel look like a terrible person. Because, Ciel is a terrible person. In the same route where Shiki constantly lovebombs Ciel and constantly talks about all her good traits and what a hero she is, and Ciel gets several very cool action scenes making her look like a cool vampire slayer, we also witness to Noel's soul and heartcrushing downward spiral that is caused in part by Ciel kind of not really giving a shit about Noel's feelings. Noel's downfall could have been stopped at any point by Ciel simply lifting a finger, or just noticing her partner's obvious distres but instead what Ciel does is Noel completely out of the loop (like not telling Noel that she was waiting for Roa to reveal himself before attacking Shiki) .

Like, the scene where Noel turns into a vampire is directly caused by Ciel's actions. Noel reveals to Shiki that he's currently possessed by Roa. Ciel stands up for Shiki, in what we think is Ciel not wanting to believe that Shiki is possessed by Roa. However, what we learn instead is that Ciel only approached Shiki in the first place because she assumed he would be Roa's first target, and has been keeping by his side constantly waiting for Roa to appear so she can murk him.

So, all Ciel needed to do was TELL NOEL that she was playing the long game and ask Noel to wait a little longer before showing their hand, but apparently basic communication with her partner is too much effort for Ciel.

This leads into a scenario where not only does Noel think Ciel has broken their partnership (i mean she kinda has) but Ciel directly injures Noel pretty badly and leaves her alone. When Arach shows up to prey upon Noel, Noel can't even fight back by that point. Arach is the bus that hit Noel, but Ciel sure did throw Noel under that bus for no real reason.

I mean there is a story reason - it shows that Ciel may be an instrument of justice but she doesn't save people, in fact she does not give two figs about whether or not people are saved by her actions. Ciel obsessively hunting vampires, is not really that far off from Noel torturing vampires for her own sense of petty vengeance. However, Ciel hunts vampires offscreen so we as an audience don't see really the way, she treats the vampires she kills, but from the way she both foils Noel and also the sadistic way she draws out killing Shiki possessed by Roa as long as possible you can infer that she's not all too different from Noel. That's good actually, that Ciel seems like a good heroic person, but if you squint at her she's not much better than Noel, because like that's the entire point of her character the good, altruistic senpai never existed in the first place. All of Ciel's words about atonement and forgiveness are empty platitudes, just her regurgitating the words the church fed to her.

So finally to conclude, we have the culmination of the moebius strip, where Noel the apparent opposite of Ciel, slowly morphs into Ciel. Noel's flaws in a narrative sense led to her downfall, but let's be clear Noel had no fucking agency in her transformation into a vampire. She was hysterically begging for Arach not to do it. She was pinned and helpless to escape when it happened. It is Arach and Ciel's fault what happened to her.

Noel does make choices, but her choice amounts to not immediately killing herself the moment she became a vampire. She does take like 500 shots to become an ubervamp, but like, the story clearly states that once people become vampires their moralities and personalities are radically altered. So if that's a choice it's an influenced choice.

Therefore the only choice in that moment Noel is truly responsible for is not killing herself while she was still lucid. Irony upon ironies because that's exactly what she yells at vampires to do, bow down and let their heads be cut off by the executors. However, if Noel is guilty for not immediately offing herself, so is Ciel, so is Shiki. Both of these characters get saved while Noel gets old yeller'd. This is unfair and also, you guessed it, the point. Ciels revenge against vampires accomplishes nothing. Noel giving up her humanity for the shot at revenge against Ciel accomplishes nothing. It's almost like revenge doesn't heal, it just puts more pain and misery into the world. No one is saved by revenge.

Noel is fridged for Ciel's arc, and neither Ciel nor Shiki ultimately save her even though she's not all that responsible for her own downfall. This is not the narrative playing good victim and bad victim. If anything it makes Ciel look way worse as a person. The narrative even goes out of its way to say that both Ciel and Noel have a right to their revenge and in a situation like this the winner wasn't determined by who was right but who's stronger. Ciel has no moral high ground she just happens to be stronger, that's it. She doesn't take the higher road with Noel even after Shiki went to such great length to try to reach her emotionally and tell her she was still human, no Ciel makes no attempt to talk to Noel or take a third route she just murks her.

Noel is my favorite character for this route probably second favoeite overall behind Kohaku and I one hundred percent agree with fridging her, because it makes Ciel's character a hundred times better by giving her consequences for her flaws. It's one thing for Ciel to break down crying about how much she hates herself for being a cold merciless machine. It's another thing to have this demonstrated by Ciel letting her partner fall to the wayside by just not giving a shit about anyone's feelings or anything except for her personal quest against vampires.

Noel is a victim of the cycle of revenge, a pointless and harmful cycle. In a story that's thoroughly anti revenge as evidenced in the true end of hisuis route where Kohaku having achieved absolute perfect revenge and having her plan gone entirely right, takes a knife and gouges out her own heart with it. If that's not on the nose I don't know what is.

Its poignant comun that you told me that Nasu stated there's no good ending to Ciel's routes just a normal and a true because a good ending would have saved Noel. It might look like Ciel got off scott free but if you look at it, by killing Noel and denying Noel the chance at salvation Ciel damns herself too. Ciel has not escaped the cycle in the true ending, she's still hunting vampires at the behest of the church the only real change is she has a boyfriend now. I'd compare it to the ending of UBW vs Heavens Feel. In one Shirou has Rin's support but it's implied he'll eventually leave Rin anyway and become Archer, he just won't regret saving people as Archer did. He has not escaped the self destructive cycle. Whereas in Heaven's Feel, Shiro dies and is reborn and has to you know live as a person from now on.

Ciel did not end the cycle, she perpetuated it by killing Noel. You don't end the cycle of revenge with more revenge. Since Ciel did not end it she's still trapped in the cycle herself, and she still has support in the form of Shiki but the cycle will probably consume her the way it eventually consumed Shirou. She even broke out what was essentially the UBW with black keys when fighting against Vlov. It's just like that one post on Twitter said every few years or so someone reinvent the unlimited blade works!

[glassautomaton]

What Is the First Magic, Anyways? (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love FGO Spoilers)

Out of the five instances of True Magic, the Second and Third are known about in some detail, the Fouth is a total unknown from what I can gather and simply hasn't been expanded upon in the lore quite yet, and the Fifth being shown, but not explained in detail, which is its own post. The First Magic falls somewhere in the middle here, where a few vague things are known about it and the person who attained it, but not much in the way of details.

What we do know for sure is that the Magician of the First Magic was Yumina, the First Witch, who founded the Meinster lineage and used the First to create Ploys, which were passed down to Alice Kuonji, considered to be the last pureblooded Meinster by 1989 following the 'death' of her mother. Based on some information about Witches and the Meinsters in particular from the FGO collab from back in April, I think I can hazard a strong guess as to what the First Magic actually is: authority over Mystics/Mysticism itself.

Some spoilers for FGO's Lostbelt 6, though nothing critical to the plot, as well as this translation of Alice Kuonji's FGO profile.

First off, some basic information about Witches and Yumina that was dropped a solid decade after Witch on the Moly Night first came out, because Nasu's a fucking comedian:

This establishes a few things, first and foremost that Alice is actually Yumina's descendant, that Witches aren't human and are instead closer to faeries (although I'm not sure if they can be considered true faeries as this is phrased like they were created by an individual rather than born from the land or the Inner Sea), and that the daughters of Witches are essentially the next vessel for a singular consciousness, such that lineages are more like a single individual with several reincarnations. Not all of this information is actually completely relevant to this point but how insane is it that Alice got a lore drop for the first time in a decade and it was buried in the ass-end of a six-year-old mobile game? I just needed to get that off my chest.

Alice's profile reinforces this by seeming to allude that Alice's mother and her ancestors were all the same person, as well as the third paragraph using similar wording to how True Magic is often explained.

Crucially, the final line also states that Meinsters stand in defense of Mystics from humanity's constant march towards order, which inevitably destroys Mystics by coming to understand them, as is one of the overarching themes in Type Moon in general. Yumina's lineage seems to be actively pushing back on this.

Knowing Nasu, I could stop right here. See, it's thematically cohesive with the Meinsters and Alice's character arc of growing past the reminders of her family's past and learning to appreciate the present, and thematic cohesion is really all you need in Type Moon, established lore and rules be damned.

However, I think that my point is supported by the Ploys, which are all products of the First Magic. We'll start off with the Three Great Ploys, which we know were created by Yumina proper and not any of her later descendants/incarnations.

Flat Snark, Oil of the Moon, is the Great Ploy that's featured most prominently in Mahoyo. This is pretty straightforward - the prose in the scenes that feature it describe it as Magic, and it functions by transforming the world inside of its domain into a landscape of fantastical insanity. It is, quite literally, draping the landscape in Mystics once again. Even the air becomes dense with mana, similar to the atmosphere in the Age of Gods (as shown in Absolute Demonic Front), when Mystics were at their most common and well-integrated, before humanity had begun to push it back as much as they had.

The Thames Troll is the second of the Great Three Ploys, and one that, at first glance, seems to be by far the most simple - it's a massive golem that can get stronger based on what it's built out of. Alice states she has poor compatibility with it, and therefore can only use its first two forms, that being wood and clay/brick/stone, with its final two forms being iron and steel, then silver and gold. Thames uses the environment to create its body, be it the woods the first time we see it or the brickwork in the park during Alice's fight with Touko, which would mean that further forms would likely do the same. As Alice says that the final form would overshadow even London, this would mean that Thames is capable of annihilating entire cities. However, considering it would need iron and steel nearby to do so, it could likely only become so powerful when being used within a more advanced human settlement, likely for the express purpose of destroying it. Therefore, Thames is the Ploy that most directly serves the Meinster's goals of opposing humanity and safeguarding Mystics.

The final of the Great Three Ploys, which isn't directly stated in Witch on the Holy Night but instead FGO, is Wandersnatch, which frankly could and probably should be its own post. There's a whole hell of a lot going on with that thing.

The long and short of it is that the Ploy consists of a dense fog, and numerous entities within it. Only by glimpsing Wandersnatch's true form in the fog can one escape, which makes the Ploy itself act as a microcosm for Mystics in general - it's an impossible, insurmountable obstacle that can only be weakened and overcome by observing it and learning more about it. It's little surprise, then, that Yumina herself choose Wandersnatch to inhabit while her current descendant doesn't yet harbor her consciousness - much of Wandersnatch’s presence has to do with Yumina attempting to exert more control on Alice in order to possess her and incarnate.

Ultimately, though, the smoking gun for me isn't one of the Three Great Ploys, but the most common one we see used: Diddle Diddle, Alice's favorite Ploy. This one has a simple function, that being that it strengthens Mystics in a certain area when dropped on the ground. Which is simple, yes, but also just absurd. You mean she can just crank out little Christmas tree ornaments that can singlehandedly counteract the one consistent force present in every single Type Moon property? She can just do that? Alice, and only Alice, can just say "nuh uh?" That's not attainable through normal magecraft, and has got to be an application of the First Magic through the Ploy. Considering how straightforward the effect is, it seems to pretty clearly point towards the First Magic being tied to Mystics.

As a final note, I also think this makes sense of Nasu's note that the First Magic was discovered after the Third but named as such for a special reason relating to its nature (although this is from an unofficial translation from the Fandom wiki so take this with a grain of salt). It would be very in keeping with what we know about mage society for them to say Mystics are more foundational and important than souls.

[trashybugs]

[Fanservant] Pan-Human-History Fairy King Oberon

PHH Fairy King Oberon

Class: Ruler

PROFILE

Default:

The great fairy king and the ruler of the Seelie court. Different from his Lostbelt counterpart who was born as a doomsday terminal, this fairy king lives just to enjoy life and be happy.

Although he was born as the elven king Alberich from the Germanic folklore Nibelungenlied, as time progresses, he has incarnated into a more famous portrayal from Shakespeare's "Midsummer Night Dream". He loves fame and attention, he doesn't mind shedding his old shell to become a more resplendent butterfly.

He is very capable in combat and holds a great strength, capable of controlling the nature and weather even from a change of mood. Because of his overwhelming strength, he's used to toying with his enemies and underestimating them. He prefers to summon his fae servants to fight for him while he watches from a fair distance with a benevolent (cruel) smile.

Bond 1:

Height/Weight: 183cm, 60kg (not counting antlers)

Origin: Germanic folklore, medieval European literature

Region: Britain (formerly), Avalon

Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral

Gender: Male

"My my, dearest, pray tell, why are you staring at me with that innocent, doe-eyed eyes look of yours... are you that astonished at how different I am to that pathetic, washed-out mimicry?

As expected, not a single being in any realm could come close to my greatness after all. Of course, there's a limit to what playing pretend could do... Now, come sit beside me. I would love to hear what you think of me."

A flirty, unrestrained, and outgoing monarch. Oberon has gathered a lot of lovers from varying races in his lifetime, and he's still open into adding more to his harem.

Bond 2:

While he loves gathering beautiful people for himself, he also takes great enjoyment in playing matchmaker and seeing other people's relationship develop, for the best or the worst.

A complete opposite from his other self who appreciates and finds value in everything, this Oberon does not bother attaching meaning in anything he chases. He doesn't view relationships and connections as something that should be cherished, for in the infamous Shakespearian play, his wife has proven to still love him no matter what he does.

He has a great many desires but his motives seem to be empty and short-sighted. As seen in the play, he gave his queen, Titania, a love potion to prank her without thinking much of what will happen after its effects wore off. He received no consequences for his actions and the story eventually brushed aside the quarrel that they had, further enabling his behavior. To him, there never seemed to be a problem that came his way or a moment in the story that criticized his faulty mindset.

His appetite for the world is unquenchable, as he views everything in it as worthy of enjoyment. He seeks to collect everything that shines before his eyes, yet as his collection grows, so does his dissatisfaction. What motives he has to obtain them are but a momentary fancy, but due to his own frivolous nature, he's fundamentally incapable of realizing and fulfilling his desire for a genuine attachment

Oberon lives as any pan-human history fairies will do, living life as he pleases.

Bond 3:

Being one of the great-father of the fae realm, Oberon, who came from the inner sea of the planet and has no connection with human civilization, is very connected to nature.

This can be seen with his appearance, a large beautiful antlers that attracts birds and insects to land on it, and legs resembling a stag. his outfit and a flowery cloak that is magically created by his fae servants. He’s adorned with jewelries from humans who gave him offering as a way to pass his territory safely. In some legend his pearls are made out of maiden’s tears.

with a face that is blessed to be forever beautiful, he is a king that is fitting to rule the fae realm.

Without his beloved queen Titania to accompany him, he took in her role and personality. He developed more gentle, nurturing, almost motherly role to the fairies around him.

As long there’s nature around him, he could give birth to new fairies on a whim using little bit of mana from his Fairy Patterns. He sires many children from that method of reproduction alone but he also took enjoyment in creating them with others. Such as his consorts and random human maidens.

In some legends he have another famous fairy queen besides Titania, named queen Mab

Bond 4:

Oberon was horrified and amused upon finding out about his other self. A pretend prince in rags and naught a kingdom to speak of. A solitary, spineless insect who is content to forever stare at the star above him instead of dragging it down for himself.

Oberon can't wrap his mind on the way his other self sees the world, and while he agrees that stories should not be forgotten, he thinks they should rightfully be enjoyed forever, else they don't qualify as something interesting. In that case, they might as well be obsolete in his eyes.

In the end he took great enjoyment in observing his other self, and wouldn't even mind extending his affections toward him.

After all, he is still his beloved's master compatriot.

Bond 5:

Though his favor is true in a sense, his seeming infatuation with the Chaldean master urges him to act as though he's madly in love with them. In truth, he initially sees them as a form of entertainment, something to satisfy his curiosity and burgeoning envy as to why his other self-took so much liking towards them.

His yearning for the fictitious Titania might perhaps be even stronger than that of Oberon Vortigern's, for he sees Titania as his rightful wife in the myth, unlike Oberon Vortigern who is simply a pretender. As time goes on, his desperation to have a genuine affection for his master grows, leading him to question why their relationship with his other self seems to flourish more than it does with him. He's failed to understand that his connection with his master is fundamentally different, as the relationship between his other self and the Chaldean master have been forged through a long journey together in Lostbelt Britain.

Despite his strong longing for a true love, he doesn't put much effort in trying to find it nor is his attachment to that desire strong enough to make him hate Pan Human History.

"After all, the world is a beautiful place filled with enjoyment, what would be the point in destroying such things?"

The world is but a playground to him, in the end.

big thanks to my friend @lamunana who helps me brainstorm his lore, write her own ideas and even fix my grammar!

[a-particular-quetzalcoatl]

MAJOR LOSTBELT 6 SPOILERS

...

Lostbelt 6 reminds me of a Shel Silverstein poem called "The Unicorn", perhaps due to the floods that occur in both.

In the poem, it is basically a retelling of Noah's Ark, in which Noah is is commanded by the Lord to build the Ark and fill it with two of each animal, especially the unicorns. He finishes the Ark just in time, as the rain signaling the start of the flood has begun.

But as he counts the animals onboard after finishing the loading, Noah realizes there's one animal (or rather, two of the same animal) missing from the boat—the carefree unicorns, who ignored his instructions to get on, still too busy playing in the woods.

Even as the rain begins to pour, the unicorns continue playing in the rain, ignoring the impending danger for a moment of blissful enjoyment.

All the animals onboard begin to grow nervous as the door to the Ark remains open and the boat begins to shake, and Noah makes the decision to disembark without the unicorns.

The unicorns, finally realizing the ship is departing without them, begin to cry, and are swept away by the flood, thus explaining why there are no unicorns in the world.

...

This, of course, brings into the mind Lostbelt 6's First Mistake. The fairies that slacked on their most critical duty which led to the great divergence in history.

But it should also bring into mind the story of Chaldea and Fairy Britain.

Chaldea attempts to rescue the fairies of Britain again and again, but it because of their very natures that they cannot be saved—or rather, they do not want to be saved.

The Fairies of Britain do not seem to comprehend that their own whims will lead them to destruction. Pursuing them endlessly, they cannot see the writing on the wall until it is far, far too late.

Playing in the rain, yet crying for help as the water reaches above their necks...

[hassiegfrieddoneanythingwrong]

Today during the Lostbelt 7 recollection quests, Kirei Kotomi- I'm sorry, Grigori Rasputin, has gotten a skill rank-up.

His third skill now has his second guts be stackable with other guts, his "apply a state where NP strength is increased by 20% for 5 turns when guts is activated" affects all allies now, and applies a state where critical strength is increased by 10% for 5 turns when damaged for 3 turns.

[fiannalover]

The moment where the purpose of the Wing Clan was mentioned really stood out to me

The Wing Clan were scholars. They studied, analyzed and obtained knowledge from their efforts. We see this with the surviving Wing Fairies of the story: Habetrot has the most complete record of Britain's story that doesn't come from Britain's ground itself, Morgan or Merlin, while Murian uncovers every secret in the Lostbelt in 20 minutes tops once she stops focusing on her revenge plans and has unrestricted access to stuff.

This serves a two-fold purpose: First, characterization. Habetrot's anguish and lack of belonging when Totorot came from her incapacity to memorize stuff. She couldn't fulfill her clan's purpose of studying. Only after Mash gave her journaling and writing tools, alongside a personal purpose, did she fully shed her anger and sadness.

Secondly, the fact Britain was ways doomed to fall. Scholars record history. They make sure things we learned and experienced in ages past remain preserved for the future. They are the reason creativity and critical thinking can spring forth.

And Faerie Britain's scholars died. The only one that remains, so lost within her thirst for vengeance, she forsakes her duty.

Faerie Britain never had a chance. It could never escape its own mistakes. It did not have scholars

[300iqprower]

A lot of other Latinos might’ve swept it under the rug, but I’m still salty over all the microaggressions (and sometimes) racism that came out when Lostbelt 7 was released. I don’t get why other Latinos just turned the other cheek when YouTubers were making shitty comments about Tenochtitlan, Kukulkan, and Tezcatlipoca. None of it was criticism for them all being white either, it was just mocking them for being indigenous, for their names, for their culture, sexualizing them, etc.

Honestly I think the moment I decided I'd rather be hated by most FGO blogs was when I saw how uncritical and outright defensive the big ones were about the abject racism that is all of Lostbelt 7.

Nasu is a racist. Lostbelt 7 is, on a fundamental level, a racist concept. Not "microaggression" racist either, I'm talking 1920's era racial stereotypes. It's so offensive I can't even find an appropriate level of anger for it.

FUCK Lostbelt 7, FUCK fate grand order, and FUCK Nasu. It is appalling and while I have nothing against finding things in it to enjoy, every single person who defends it for even a moment should be ashamed.

[typemoonconfessions]

[kob131]

Im really liking this version of lot, i remember in some of arthurian stories (not really fate but still) people would either turn lot or morgause into an abusive parent to excuse why the orkneys were this fucked up. Which is fine but a more gray lot who has his flaws who is geniunely not a bad person is really nice.

Soon enough the orkneys will learn not to live their half younger sister with their father alone .........

Also these versions of gaheris and lot are canon in my head until canon ACTUALLY does something with them other than name dropping them every once in a while.

Thanks. My concept for Lot was 'a guy who opposes Arturia but isn't evil' since I feel like we never get an antagonistic view on her very often. Best we ever had was Iskandar (which is kind of skewed by Zero's writing of her) and Mordred (who doesn't even criticize her in any real way).

Yeah, either Lot encourages Mordred's rebelliousness or she punches him in the gut for badmouthing Arturia. That is the only two paths for if Mordred and Lot are alone together.

And- that's how I treat them. I almost got something with PHH Morgan but then Oberon showed up. I like Lostbelt Morgan but I would REALLY like to know what the mainline Morgan is like so I could accurately write for her.

[mokadevs]

Recently finished fgo’s olympus so here are some bleary unorganized thoughts on it and my frustrations before i drift off to sleep

i think my biggest problem with olympus is that it over promises.

I think that the set up is amazing. Not referring to atlantis, though atlantis was great as everyone and their mother has said, but the whole sequence of a) entering olympus and b) exploring olympus is incredible. I think its one of the peak examples of fgo constantly being able to make you feel like their are Actual stakes in the narrative despite you as a player knowing that the tree will inevitably be cut and you’ll see the cosmos denied screen flash by again. Running through the city

Hell, Demeter’s entire entrance was bone chilling. I think she has the best mech design of the olympus gods in my biased opinion, and seeing her drop down before the animated screech she lets out that destroys the city was incredible. Truly the first time i saw it i went Holy Shit.

Then… i wont say the lostbelt flops after that but there were a few key areas that it left me wanting.

Personal preference out of the way, ill say the constant deus ex machinas - whether it be for the good guys or the bad guys (if the bad guy has a deus ex machina, is it called that?? Anyway) - started to get a little irritating after a while. The stakes were so, so high at the start, and demeters victory felt so barely clawed for with so many bits and pieces coming together that certain other fights felt like. “Well, okay then.” The twins revealing caligula and then saying “we didnt wanna say we had him for dramatic effect!” was really eye roll worthy, for example, and to be honest i dont really understand how we were able to shmoove our way out of aphrodites mind control hellscape, which was annoying after again i loved demeters fight So much

ill note there that these are things that didnt work for ME, in MY OPINION im sure other people feel other ways about it and i am happy for them for it :]

I think that parts of the lostbelt felt… rushed, and i didnt feel like the power scaling of chaldea matched narratively. With how much trouble we had for a single fighter at the start, i felt like in universe things got too easy with too little justification.

I was really disappointed with dioscuris writing, and also weirded out by the fact that there were twin humans and twin gods but very little was drawn about their connection…?? I was so certain that they would have some sort of relationship, or at least a cool narrative foil, but all we got was the twin humans hating the dioscuri because they killed their friends, and a cheap line about adele criticizing the girl twin for always following what her brother said.

I feel mixed about chaos, because in the moment i was emotionally moved but in retrospect it feels like a bit of a cheap non-foreshadowed reason for musashi to die epicly. Though maybe it was foreshadowed and i missed it; ill have to reread, but for now it just feels Too out of the blue to feel good.

But i think the thing that i think i disliked the most was “actually zeus was going to fuck off in the end and abandon the humans here letting them die so this lostbelt was evil from the start and gudako is objevtively right for this”

And like. Thats so AGGRAVATING for the lostbelt that was drummed up to be the one that would give us the most trouble, the lostbelt that was supposed to be the model one.

What i really wanted out of this lostbelt was a lostbelt that was objectively better than earth. That really? The only reason we could justify destroying it was for our own survival. Not because the lostbelt was in some way flawed, but because we have no other choice. With how sickly killing the first lostbelt felt, i really wanted lostbelt 5 to blow me out of the park with the emotional weight of killing a world and it just. didnt even try. It threw in some half assed line about why this lostbelt was well and truly evil

Which like! Honestly if it had been done well enough i couldve been fine with, couldve been happy with. But the twist that zeus actually was going to fuck off? That chaos was going to destroy all the humans anyway?? That zeus brainwashed the other gods to his side anyway????? I felt zero sympathy in destroying this lostbelt and i wanted to, SO badly

And i am All Here for a more in depth take on how humans have twisted robots into gods. How these ronots thought they could love humans but didnt hold the capacity for it!!! Honestly that concept is super cool!! I liked it!!! But like. The way it was delivered left a bad taste in my mouth. I wanted to care more about the tragedy it had wrought.

I wish that zeus’ defeat was something like… in attempting to defeat zeus, chaldea accidentally/maybe on purpose? Endangers the people of olympus. And through the motions of protecting them, zeus burns and falls to ruin. And as he lays there, he realizes that as much as he wants to care for these people hes protecting, he doesnt. And hes dying for what he feels is nothing.

If i put more thought to it i could come up with more ways the god plotline couldve been bettered on. But like. A third act twist where the reader is reassured that this lostbelt is undeniably evil is really one of the worst options they couldve taken at that point. Basically everything else i can forgive but that felt really sour in my mouth

And finally . I loved kirschtania and caenis i did cry. I could say more on them but itd be fairly incoherent especially when im this tired. Just know that i really really like them

[fatedtime]

Can you explain what you were talking about with the whole author intent vs. reader intent surrounding LB2 criticisms? I kind of get it since a lot of LB2 opinions I've seen are proposals for alternate paths the story could have taken/character shuffles (I remember "swap Beo and Napo" was hugely popular back when the LBs first came to NA), but I haven't really seen much recently/it still feels kinda off from what you alluded to. Maybe. Just pickin your brain a bit, if ya don't mind.

Okay, so, first I'm going to stipulate that I haven't read Lostbelt 2 since it's release, so my recollections on its specific themes (or, what I gathered from it, because I find Lostbelt 2 to be kind of muddled generally) are going to be inexact.

The simplest way I can explain it though is how fandom treats Skadi. Skadi is a pretty widely-hated character, characterization wise. I think, in terms of passion of how much the people who hate her do hate her, she's matched by extremely abrasive characters like Medb. I've heard tons of people talking about rewriting Skadi, tons of people emphasizing distaste for her direction, and METRIC shittons of people dismissing anything the author wanted to say with her as 'she's waifubait', without taking any time to actually dissect the intention behind her. Conversation around Skadi immediately devolves into assuming nothing about her themes has any narrative value, and that the totality of her builds into one thing: Skadi only exist for men to sexualize her.

This is sexism, full-stop, but plenty of other essays exist that dissect fandom culture and the tendency to put no effort into analyzing mediocre female-characters while fixating heavily on mediocre male characters, fleshing them out and developing them far beyond what actually exists in the source material.

Which like, I think Skadi is a mediocre female character, but every time I've seen Skadi discussed, it is with two motivations: either to dismiss her as a waifu, or throw her personality out entirely in a 'rewrite', discounting every single thing the author is trying to say with her and putting the reader's own desired Skadi in its place. These rewrites tend to make her 'cooler' and give her 'more agency' without understanding that Skadi's lack of agency is the point.

Lostbelt 2 is Ophelia's Lostbelt, a character defined almost entirely by her own lack of agency and her romantic fixation on a man who doesn't really care about her best interests. She exists as a satellite to him, doing his bidding and entirely willing to sacrifice herself for him, without any hope of reward. She wants what he wants. Her dreams are his dreams.

Skadi parallels this.

She's a woman who, in her Lostbelt, is so paralyzed by the weight put upon her that, in lieu of making any real decisions, instead constructs a world of child-farms. Skadi and Ophelia are both infantile in their decision-making ability; they defer entirely to other people (or, the lost images of another person.) These are clearly meant to be toxic relationships, and LB2 is a story about relationships and what happens when the parties within them are emotionally immature. How if you can't grow up, you can't live, and will make it impossible for those around you to grow and live as well.

This is why the story has sympathy for Skadi, too. It's a fucking awful position to be in, and getting mad at people who are emotionally stunted is an exercise in fucking futility. The world has failed them, of course they'd fail others. The world has failed them -- what is the point in another goddamn revenge fantasy of punishing a woman who wasn't given the tools to live as an independent being? Society itself tells women that enough already, while also telling them that they have no worth outside the men they serve. There are enough stories about it in the world.

The stuff with Surtr, the stuff with Napoleon is all about relationships -- positive and negative, cold and hot, immature and mature, healing and hurting. I firmly don't like the idea of swapping Napo out for Beowulf because Napoleon exists to be like, the ideal of Napoleon's hope and freedom. It's this ultra-positive idea of self-actualization and belief in yourself. Beowulf just... doesn't... have that? I feel like it's another thing that exists without considering what would be better for the characters already existing.

Now. Do I think the various characters and their relationships are like, examined well and the ultimate thematic core of it conveyed well? E.....eeeeeeeeeeh. I mean, I've already said I think Skadi is mediocre, and ultimately, I don't like the story. But when approaching suggestions of what to change, I'd want to keep the author's intent in mind, because it's not my story. It's hers. Its what she wanted to do. Examining it through a different lens, with different ideas, and theorizing on how these ideas could be reflected and transformed into other things is valuable, but can only really effectively done with the heart of the writer is taken into consideration first.

This is something I think fandom generally has trouble with. Online fandom and the relationship to creators that has developed is like, deeply, toxicly fucked up. Those who create have been dehumanized to such an extreme extent, their so-called fans stripping them of any humanity and consuming their content in pure, decadent self-absorption, that no thought goes into the hearts of those who put their work out into the world. Idolized or demonized or forgotten, if you create and share it, you are doomed to having your watermarks filed off, your intentions disregarded or maligned, your work fed to AI to be regurgitated en-mass, and all manner of assumptions placed into the void of your privacy as people slander you, harass you, or glorify you into an inhuman caricature of yourself.

Like, THE REASON IT IS NO LONGER STATED WHAT AUTHOR WROTE WHAT STORY-CHAPTERS IN FGO IS BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO SENT SAKURAI FUCKING DEATH THREATS. ANY DISCUSSION OF SKADI AND HER INTENT AS A CHARACTER, ANY NEGATIVE ASSUMPTIONS MADE ABOUT WHY SHE WAS WRITTEN THAT WAY, IS WRITTEN ABOUT A WOMAN WHO WAS TOLD EN-MASS TO GO DIE FOR HER WORK, SIMPLY FOR THE CRIME OF A GACHA GAME CHAPTER BEING KINDA BAD.

When talking about her ideas, her stories, her characters, just... think of Sakurai as a human being, please. That's what I mean with all this, a generalized plea to remember that every story was penned by a living, breathing human being. Creators and their characters aren't thought of as people anymore, and analyzing a character or story while paying no regard to them or what they were trying to say fucking sucks. There's value in examining how you'd approach something, but editing someone's work and saying 'I did it better!' is cruel. Dismissing the writing of women by calling them waifus, talking about how 'clearly, the author was stupid and didn't take any time to research' about new story-chapters, without yourself thinking through what the author could have been trying to say with it is... just... treating people like they're soulless sacks of flesh meant for you to dispense content as it pleases you.

No creator in this world gets paid enough for that horseshit.

-- Thank you so much for the question! This wasn't inspired by any kind of immediate take I saw, by the way, I was just trying to dissect the authorial intent of Mephistopheles in the last JP event and got to thinking a bit about LB2, Skadi, and how even if I don't like her, I viscerally hate it whenever LB2 comes up on Beast's Lair.

[hasarjunadoneanythingwrong]

why do i only see you talk about colourism when it comes to arjuna and never mention it when ash or bhima is involved. or what about the other dark skinned characters it applies to, like geronimo and scheherezade. it just comes across as a gotcha to shut down criticisms about arjuna.

not really sure what you mean by using the discussion of colorism in media as 'a gotcha to shut down criticisms about arjuna' but if it looks like im focusing on one character it is most likely because i run a blog dedicated to that character. i dont talk as much about characters that i do not focus on! this is normal for many people

that being said, this is patently not true bc i have actually talked about racism and colorism in fate before and its embarrassing i have to show this to someone whos clearly not seen much of this blog and is likely only saying this bc theyre upset about something else

right here was a discussion about the decision to make nemo light skinned/about how the excuse 'people look like that from the region irl' is a poor excuse used to justify treating light skin as a default in games like this

this was a tag of mine i screenshotted and made its own post referring to the colorism/sexualization of many of the brown women in fate that then expanded into a discussion of lakshmi bai's specific treatment and the issues with it

i've also talked about other instances of racism in fate and genshin, like the the issues in lostbelt 7 and its white washing, though you may not have seen them because most of that commentary was kept to the tags or left untagged. i could dig up more of the posts but i honestly don't want to- it's not actually my job to prove anything to you, but this is such a clearly bad faith take its outright insane you can say it with your chest (on anon)

if anything, ive only recently commented on colorism as it pertains to arjuna again as the last time i did was over a year ago but i am allowed to discuss it, even if its about a character I care about.

[thessaliah]

Why are the Chaldeans critical of the Crypters for betraying humanity to save themselves (such as in Atlantis when Mash asks Wodime why they did it) yet at the same time are willing to work with rebel Lostbelt inhabitants who are betraying theirs? Isn't that hypocritical?

Yes, it is. Because they are actually the unwitting pawns of the antagonist until LB7.